Re: Tamaskan Debate

razcox Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:18 am

TuuliS wrote:Jingle, I have been saying all these things since I found out Lynn was not going to tell the truth. You can check e.g. from Dogsey forum.

jingle wrote:
razcox wrote:
If the dogs were huskies then they should be easy to find the pedigrees.. . .

Well this has already been tried, pedigrees have been found and presented. But instead of admitting defeat they say that its the wrong dog.

A link to a database is not proof. All Finnish pure bred dogs and all imports are there. If they are pure bred Siberians, they should have real papers and I know what they look like giving I have 6 FKC registered dogs. Please show us the paper pedigrees for Susi, Jackal, Dingo, Zev and Magnus.

jingle wrote:
That Polar Speed have more than one dog called Oskari and you all go along with it.

First of all, csw Oskari's real name isnt Oskari, he is Oxbow Leva-Neve. Oskari is his nickname. Siberian husky P.S. Oskari's real name is P.S. Oskari. Polar Speed has been breeding huskies for quite some time so you can even find two siberians or a siberian and a Japanese Spitz having the same real name. E.g.: http://jalostus.kennelliitto.fi/frmKoirat.aspx?Uusi=1&Nimi=polar%20speed%20olga&Kotimaiset=0 , http://jalostus.kennelliitto.fi/frmKoirat.aspx?Uusi=1&Nimi=polar%20speed%20berit&Kotimaiset=0 , http://jalostus.kennelliitto.fi/frmKoirat.aspx?Uusi=1&Nimi=polar%20speed%20doris&Kotimaiset=0 , http://jalostus.kennelliitto.fi/frmKoirat.aspx?Uusi=1&R=270&Nimi=polar%20speed%20elmo&Kotimaiset=0 and so on: http://jalostus.kennelliitto.fi/frmKoirat.aspx?Uusi=1&Nimi=polar%20speed&Kotimaiset=0 . So you see this is not weird or exceptional in any way. It is just so obvious you are trying to use P.S. Oskari as a alibi for csw Oskari but failed to know P.S. Oskari is not owned by Reijo nor had any litters at his kennels and anyone can check that. Anyone can also contact Wild Motion kennels and confirm this information: www.wildmotion.fi .You can also contact Reijo and ask him, his contact details can be found at: http://www.polarspeed.fi/. Not to mention the several articles where csw Oskari is mentioned, e.g. http://www.hs.fi/omaelama/artikkeli/Koira+sin%C3%A4+olet+t%C3%A4hti/HS20061217SI1KU0179e . Where it says: "Eight years ago on a competition trip to Pyrenees Jääskeläinen saw the precious treasure of a fellow musher - a wolfdog mother and her two puppies. These wolfdogs are a mix of wolves and GSD's. Jääskeläinen's huskies were in tough racing condition and he was able to convince the fellow musher a trade. Wolfdog puppy Oskari came to Finland and huskyman Jääskeläinen became a wolfdogman. Now Oskari's offspring run in front of the sled."

jingle wrote:
The Sire in the litter was 100% husky but the dam is said to be high percentage which means Jackal and Dingo would not be registered huskies anyway as they are not pure hence they have no paperwork hence no proof from either side except from DNA profiling.

Jackal is Oskari x P.S. Pauliina. Pauliina in FKC database: http://jalostus.kennelliitto.fi/frmKoira.aspx?RekNo=FIN10861/00&R=270. If Oskari is pure bred siberian, there would be a pedigree looking like this: http://jalostus.kennelliitto.fi/frmSukutaulu.aspx?RekNoI=FIN38076/99&ReknoE=FIN10861/00, which would make Jackal a pure bred husky and he would then have FKC papers.

I wonder why you didnt go for the other registered Polar Speed Oskari, the Japanese Spitz. http://jalostus.kennelliitto.fi/frmKoira.aspx?RekNo=FIN52953/06&R=262 . This would have at least made Jackal a mixed breed

jingle wrote:
I think you all need to buy a copy of the foundation dogs booklet, you may all have a better understanding then.

I have it. None of the information is really helpful. (If anyone here has not got it, email me and get your copy!)

jingle wrote:
I am sorry I have more important things to do than beat my head against a brick wall.
If you don't like the Tamaskan dogs buy one, dont promote them but for god sakes don't defame them for petty reasons or create websites stating things that you cannot prove.

I have a Tamaskan and I love her to bits! Your reasoning just does not work, everyone wanting the truth has the right to have it, no matter what they think of Tamaskans, TDR, Jennie, Lynn or me.

jingle wrote:
I think we will all see who is telling the truth after legal action is taken.

Sure, I have no problem with that as I know I'm telling the truth.

Listen Jingle, if you are not Jennie P. or Lynn S., you can just ask them to post here themselves and answer the questions. No need for you to defend them. As they themselves have said, no one but them know the truth anyway.

Jingle the above post is why people are 'siding' with TuuliS and the website. They have facts and info which they are happy to share and offer further info if asked. When anything is asked of you or the others then all we get is personal comments and that we just hate the breed.It makes it very hard to add weight to your claims this is all rubbish when you have nothing to back it up and here the website is with all this evidence . . .

jingle Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:43 am

but there is no evidence this is the issue the only evidence they have is what people have told them, namely the web of lies that tuuli has spread
They have no paperwork, no signed contracts from the breeders lynn supposedly bought puppies from, no reciepts, reciepts of insurance etc (not even a testimony from that breeder, but just a friend of the breeder, thats not evidence), they have no dna proof, even the cached sites you can't see any pictures or material that would lead you to believe Jodie is Henki. The site being www.blustag-arcticbreeds.com and the website that lynn uses being www.blustag-arcticbreeds.co.uk for anyone that didn't spot that one. The pictures of Valko and the pictures of whitefang in the foundation dogs booklet don't match up other than they are both white and male.

Ok so they have the pedigree of a dog that is called pet name oskari, the fact they have a pedigree is not proof that it is the correct dog.

Here is a copy of what Jennie said on the Tamaskan forum, she has a better way with words I think. This is not in answer to this forum, this is taken direct from the thread where they were talking about it.

I will address some of these issues, the first one is Boogie.
Perfectly true, Lynn did own a wolfdog when she was in Finland, lovely boy he was too, but because of the laws about wolfdogs in the UK she was unable to bring him back with her and she sadly re-homed him so she could return to the UK and be with her family.
Lynn I am sure will admit to owning such a dog and of course sending pictures of him and his parentage to the lady she re-homed him with.
This is not proof that she ever used him at stud or integrated him in anyway into the breeding pool.
Surely the fact that she re-homed him rather than transporting him back to England suggests that she did not purchase him for breeding but just for the chance to be close to something that was such high percentage wolf. She was heartbroken to let him go.
Everything they say on this website is based on guesses and speculation

As for Blondy, also perfectly true, Blondy was purchased at 9 years old as an experianced sled dog to teach the younger ones the ropes.
We have never denied owning Blondy or the fact that she was Valko's mother, this again is not proof that Valko was integrated into the Tamaskan breeding pool.

As for Henki and Jodie being the same dog. Many of the photographs of the supposed 'Henki' were taken from Lynns own website (where they were labelled Jodie), so could quite easily be taken from the website and used for whatever purposes. Many people on this forum will be used to seeing people claiming to own dogs they do not on other forums. We also have lots of people who use our dogs as avatars even though they do not own them.
Saying they have seen a picture of Jodie on another website (which no longer exists) saying that their name is Henki is not proof of anything.

As for Oskari, you need only type Polar Speed Oskari into the Finnish Kennel Club pedigree finder to see that he is in fact pure Siberian Husky.
http://jalostus.kennelliitto.fi/frmKoira.aspx?RekNo=FIN38076/99&R=270

Documentation from Finnish sources close to Heidi’s breeder confirms that Heidi was one of eight puppies out of Valko and Sara Heidi’s official pedigree from a Finnish database further confirms this.
I am sorry but what? How would sources close to the breeder have documentation about a puppy that was sold to someone they don't know by someone else?
And if this puppy was sold why would it be listed as a crossbreed with the Finnish database and if it is does it have Lynns name next to it as an owner, I think not. This is all again speculation and guess work.

I really don't have the time nor the patience to read through the rest of it but it is clear they have not done their homework. Whitefang is a beautiful boy and has produced some lovely pups for us, all these pups are available to see and are owned by people across the world, I owned one myself for a time and I have pictures of her in with my rabbits and snuggling on the couch, playing with my young son etc etc.
I have also had experiance with high content wolfdogs and I would NEVER put my son or my other dogs and animals in such a setting with something as unstable and unpredictable as a high content wolfdog. I would also never sell high content to people with families or to inexperianced owners, I would certaintly never introduce a high content wolfdog into the Tamaskan breed and then pretend that the pups produced are going to be great family pets with low prey drive, I would never get away with it and the breed would be seeings some very angry owners with out of control and aggressive dogs.
I have a list of the owners of all the whitefang pups if anyone wishes to contact them to inquire about the temprement of their dogs.

The laws in the UK have recently been changed to allow wolfdogs of F3 or lower content. If we wished to add wolfdogs with our Tamaskan (as many of the Utonagan and NI breeders have chosen to do, but not call them NI or Ute obviously) we could (like them) admit to it freely but then we would have no consistancy in type and we would (like they have) be recieving complaints about aggressive dogs and may even see some of our beloved Tamaskan being put down as the owners cannot cope, I know of three Ute x Czech wolfdog crosses that have been put to sleep for attacking their owners.

We will of course allow you to draw your own conclusions about what has been written on this website, most of you know the history between us and the Aatu Tamaskan owners and if you do not you can ask or find snippets of information on this forum.

sally Tue Dec 01, 2009 7:48 am

this holes getting deeper and deeper .

AilaW Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:13 am

I would be interested to see here the following information:

- pedigree of Heidi at Blustag, with contact details of the owner of the sire and dam
- pedigree of Jodie at Blustag, with contact details of the owner of the sire and dam

This should not be such secret information that it couldn´t be shown here. Just for open discussion. Because just saying you´re wrong is not good enough any more.

I guess I´m not the only one looking forward to see this information. If it will not be provided, then everybody can make their own conclusions...

Lanie Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:15 am

[quote="jingle"]

I am sorry if you think I am being rude Lanie, I don't mean to be. I was very badly treated by the people on the other forum through posts by admin (who deleted an innocent list of the dogs I knew had produced epilepsy in the tamaskan world and who had links to Utonagan) and by others through pm's so I am a little rattled and I never meant to drag other breeds into this, I only joined the forum innocently looking for info on hip dysplacia in my dogs lines (that went back to Utonagan) because I had lost a NI to hip issues a few years back and also because I was considering breeding (the TDR does not have access to these old hip results, I already asked them), [quote]
First of all Jenny, I am admin on the bUA forum, if you had cared to notice and what really happened for all forum readers is this:
Jenny "arrived" on our forum stating her dog was from ANzaras lines as are some of ours and if we could share any health info....so she was directed to our OPEN health report and also OPEN hip score results....I then had emailedand phoned Lynn Sharkey re sharing some helth info asking for a link to the TDR health database...I have not yet been furnished with this....after my contact with LynnS Jenny deleted all her original posts from our forum...strange??

Then I received an email regarding one of LynnS pups that had to be PTS due to bad fitting and a serious skin disorder....I emailed this info to lynnS and TDR my reply from Lynn was "thank you this has been dealt with" !!!! I then received an email from Jenny what one is anyones guess with a few other health details...

Jenny Jingle then came back to start on at tuuli and the new web site and was asked on numerous occasions to pm or email health info as it is protocol that this informaation is checked out and tied in with other info we have BEFORE going public and also we like to pre-warn owners if there is infact reason to and the health report affects there own lines, hence they can tell puppy owners in a personal manner PRIOR to being scared the life out of on the public forum with no prior warning of a problem....I NEVER deleted health info it was copied and pasted into my files where the other healt reports pertaining to this are also and ALL will be in the Health report once it has all been doubly checked out...YOU where told this on numerous occasions I fail to see why you have a problem with a sensitive issue being dealt with in a professional manner!!
[quote="jingle"]I happened upon the argument about Tamaskan and I tried to defend my dog and my breeder as any owner would when people are spreading lies that could result in their pet being taken away and pts by authorities. I was just trying to state a point that lies are spread about every breed of 'wolf like' dog, but because someone says its true does not mean that it is.[quote]

you have every right to have your own opinion as do everyone else on this matter but a full scale war on Tamaskan is not really what BUA forum is for it is for our UTE owners and friends and also the first port of call to potential owners I as Admin do not want the first thing they see to be the Tamaskan debate, all other owners understand this why cant you??

[quote="jingle"]I did not want to offend anyone with a Utonagan or insinuate that they have wolf content, they don't, it is all just rumour. I also don't mean to insinuate that NI or Ute societies don't have health systems in place, they all have them now.

I apologise to anyone who took offence by what I have said, I only wish to defend my friends.[quote]

I havent taken offense as all I can see is that you are a blatent story teller and trouble maker and you are certainly NOT doing the Tamaskan nor the TDR any good at all!

Rakuen Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:14 am

This seems to have quickly become less of a debate and more of an attack on anyone who doesn't agree with "No Wolf" or the people who run it.

**Admin** Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:43 am

Rakuen wrote:This seems to have quickly become less of a debate and more of an attack on anyone who doesn't agree with "No Wolf" or the people who run it.

I have to completely agree with you there, can I please ask all posters to please keep this to a rational debate, everyone of you is entitled to your opinions and I feel unless the owners and representatives of TDR can come on and answer your questions that this arguement will be never ending neither side agreeing.

I also would like to remind you all that this a public forum and as has been pointed out the repurcussions for some owners in other parts of the world have different laws and this I feel is not fair to them that these allegations are banded around an open forum.

I hope you see this as a fair point and post accordingly, I do not wish to lock the thread from rational debate but please be aware of the possible outcomes folks

Thank you

Danielle Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:59 am

jingle wrote:Not many people can boast to have the names and addresses of all their dogs grandparents owners.

Hm. Thats strange. I can. And my parents are buying a new puppy, and I have met most of the grandparents and even great grandparents of their new pup and they haven't even brought her home...but then, John explained it's because its a "new breed"...

jingle Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:01 am

I have already told you I don't have the contact details for whitefangs owner and I don't know why you assume that I do, whitefang is not even in my dogs pedigree, my dog is from old utonagan lines, im not a breeder, im not on the committee and whitefang lives in finland, I don't, so why expect me to have it
I can see this is a very one sided forum, but then I suppose what did I expect.
Jennie and Lynn do not visit other forums, they have told me this so you won't get them posting on here or even reading this I doubt, if you want answers or to hear the actual truth then go to the tamaskan forum and talk to Jennie or Lynn, I shall not be posting here again.

I see the no wolf site cannot produce any real proof so instead you are demanding proof from me, im afraid it doesn't work like that. If they are the ones stating it as fact surely they should be the ones to back up the accusations, have you ever considered whitefangs owners may not want to be contacted by the likes of these people who started the website, I am sure they know their dog is not a wolf.

sally Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:11 am

jingle wrote:I have already told you I don't have the contact details for whitefangs owner and I don't know why you assume that I do, whitefang is not even in my dogs pedigree, my dog is from old utonagan lines, im not a breeder, im not on the committee, so why expect me to have it
I can see this is a very one sided forum, but then I suppose what did I expect.
Jennie and Lynn do not visit other forums, they have told me this so you won't get them posting on here or even reading this I doubt, if you want answers or to hear the actual truth then go to the tamaskan forum and talk to Jennie or Lynn, I shall not be posting here again.

truth you,ve no idea what the word means. i know were all the dogs up to four generations are on my northern inuit,s pedigree,i,m planning to go visit the majority of them in the new year Very Happy

AilaW Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:46 am

Nice try jingle Laughing

Anyone who goes to Tamaskan Forum with "wrong" questions will immediately be banned out from the Forum Laughing

That possibility to find out the truth behind the Tamaskan dogs has been experimented already before publishing the "No-Wolf"-Tamaskan Fable site. Unfortunately, Tamaskan Forum does not give answers to unpleasant for them inquiries. Conclusions?

jingle Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:15 pm

Actually this has been discussed already on the tamaskan forum.
Its people who go to the forum who have already made up their minds and are only their to post the link to the no wolf website, pm the members or generally stir up trouble that get banned that has been two people, Tuuli and Kim.
Not one other person has asked any questions about the lineage of the dogs, if you want to be the first go ahead, I am sure you will not be banned if you go with an open mind and ask nicely.

**Admin** Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:22 pm

Right Time out must be drawn here...

We can thank this thread to be the first report on our brand new forum which is intended to bring people together. I will lock it and once and if any legal action has been taken between the 2 parties concerned I will administer the forum accordingly.

I hope you all realise the seriousness of liable and that it is the inividual who posted that is held fully responsible for the act of liable so I advise you review your posts henceforth.

The forum adminiastrators hold no responsibilty for individuals posts. I hope I have made that clear.

Now please sort this out between yourselves and let the other owners and breeds enjoy this forum for the reasons it was created

Thank You
Admin

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