The origins of the wolfalike dog

i had a lovely conversation with julie kelham about two weeks ago, and am hoping to visit in the new year

jake wrote:Completely off topic maybe admin could move to an off topic thread??

The questions you are asking should be addressed to JK as she is the founder of the NI. I am sure she will be only to happy to answer any questions you might have if you are a "genuinely" interested party? Again anyone else,s theories are just that, theories!!

Buck certainly has a lot to answer for, inkmark and curly tails You said he sired some really wolfy pups, but then so did Inca (also an inkmark) from Sulin.

yes some of it is off topic as you say, but someone did ask to see a picture of Buck,
and my whole point of bringing up Buck in the first place was about crossing back to the founder breeds if no one knows what they were.

Thread split by admin:due to 2 topics developing.

Have moved this topic to have one of its own, Artic to be fair on the thread Question time remember this forum is not even a week old and a lot of the breed clubs have only just been sent emails from me to invite them here, maybe you should post them a link, as far as I can see there has only been 1 Committee member on from the NIS so far and it will take time for everyone to find their way around the forum.

Admin wrote: Have moved this topic to have one of its own, Artic to be fair on the thread Question time remember this forum is not even a week old and a lot of the breed clubs have only just been sent emails from me to invite them here, maybe you should post them a link, as far as I can see there has only been 1 Committee member on from the NIS so far and it will take time for everyone to find their way around the forum.

yes OK I know I am too impatient

Now back to crossing and the terms used to describe: wolfalike/hybrid/wolfdog:

Firstly I feel that your posts are only out to discredit the NIS and particularly JK. Yes I have read the WHOLE forum. Do you not think it is time to move on and concentrate on the dogs we have today?? I can post further quotes from you if necessary. This one however completely covers my point on breed descriptions!! Thanks!!


arctic wolf



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Posted: Mar 10 2009, 08:38 AM



"If there is even the smallest % of wolf blood then I believe that they should be described as wolfdogs. I think that now even if there was wolf blood in the beginning of the breed, it is now many generations ago, so the dogs would not be classed as wolf hybrids as they are further removed than F3, but if there is wolf blood there IMO they should be classed as wolfdogs."

To my understanding Saarloos contains "wolf blood" and therefore, by your reckoning, any cross should be classed as WOLFDOGS. I completely agree!!




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post deleted

Jake quoted part of a post I made on another forum, out of context, where I was referring to dogs sold as wolf hybrids not Saarloos wolfdogs

While I don't want to get involved in any arguments over the NI, I think the 'any wolfblood' would be incredibly hard to prove. From the NI that I have met they seem to show no 'wolf' behavioural traits. The photos of the original stock look like typical 'low to no' content US dogs.

There are 3 wolfdog breeds with verified lineage that were developed by careful cross breeding with specific wolves, two of these were government sponsored programs. The Czech and Lupo Italiano both have around 25% wolf content which is both reflected in their appearance (though the Lupo was not bred to look like a wolf) and their behaviour to a lesser degree. The Saarloos was created by crossing of 2 lines of wolf dog a 25% line of working wolf dog with a 50% line; thus creating an animal with a higher wolf content which is reflected in their behaviour. The term 'wolf' (Lupo, or vlčák) or 'wolfdog' (wolfhonden) has been used to identify the origin of these breeds.

In the end it all comes down to what you want to believe.

Vantard wrote:While I don't want to get involved in any arguments over the NI, I think the 'any wolfblood' would be incredibly hard to prove. From the NI that I have met they seem to show no 'wolf' behavioural traits. The photos of the original stock look like typical 'low to no' content US dogs.

There are 3 wolfdog breeds with verified lineage that were developed by careful cross breeding with specific wolves, two of these were government sponsored programs. The Czech and Lupo Italiano both have around 25% wolf content which is both reflected in their appearance (though the Lupo was not bred to look like a wolf) and their behaviour to a lesser degree. The Saarloos was created by crossing of 2 lines of wolf dog a 25% line of working wolf dog with a 50% line; thus creating an animal with a higher wolf content which is reflected in their behaviour. The term 'wolf' (Lupo, or vlčák) or 'wolfdog' (wolfhonden) has been used to identify the origin of these breeds.

In the end it all comes down to what you want to believe.

I know that sadly there will never be any proof one way or the other. I would love to see pictures of the original stock.

Saarloos and Czechoslavakin wolfdogs are definitely a lot more 'wolflike' than the NI, never met a Lupo Italiano, but have read about the history, fascinating.

With reference to the part in bold - in your opinion does that mean a GSD cross should be categorized a wolfdog??

Ani

jake wrote:Now back to crossing and the terms used to describe: wolfalike/hybrid/wolfdog:

Firstly I feel that your posts are only out to discredit the NIS and particularly JK. Yes I have read the WHOLE forum. Do you not think it is time to move on and concentrate on the dogs we have today?? I can post further quotes from you if necessary. This one however completely covers my point on breed descriptions!! Thanks!!


arctic wolf



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Group: Members
Posts: 1,255
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Joined: 26-November 08





Posted: Mar 10 2009, 08:38 AM



"If there is even the smallest % of wolf blood then I believe that they should be described as wolfdogs. I think that now even if there was wolf blood in the beginning of the breed, it is now many generations ago, so the dogs would not be classed as wolf hybrids as they are further removed than F3, but if there is wolf blood there IMO they should be classed as wolfdogs."

To my understanding Saarloos contains "wolf blood" and therefore, by your reckoning, any cross should be classed as WOLFDOGS. I completely agree!!




--------------------

Ani wrote:With reference to the part in bold - in your opinion does that mean a GSD cross should be categorized a wolfdog??

Ani

jake wrote:Now back to crossing and the terms used to describe: wolfalike/hybrid/wolfdog:

Firstly I feel that your posts are only out to discredit the NIS and particularly JK. Yes I have read the WHOLE forum. Do you not think it is time to move on and concentrate on the dogs we have today?? I can post further quotes from you if necessary. This one however completely covers my point on breed descriptions!! Thanks!!


arctic wolf



Advanced Member


Group: Members
Posts: 1,255
Member No.: 19
Joined: 26-November 08





Posted: Mar 10 2009, 08:38 AM



"If there is even the smallest % of wolf blood then I believe that they should be described as wolfdogs. I think that now even if there was wolf blood in the beginning of the breed, it is now many generations ago, so the dogs would not be classed as wolf hybrids as they are further removed than F3, but if there is wolf blood there IMO they should be classed as wolfdogs."

To my understanding Saarloos contains "wolf blood" and therefore, by your reckoning, any cross should be classed as WOLFDOGS. I completely agree!!




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Hi, that post I made on another forum was back in March, now I am undecided on the term 'wolfdog' and that's why I started the thread about 'what is a wolfdog' to get peoples opinions on the 'wolfdog' word. To me there is a lot of difference between a F1-3 wolf hybrid/wolfdog, and a recognised wolfdog breed of dog.

the GSD now thats another matter,
There is a lot of talk about wolf blood in the early GSD, and when they were first recognised by the KC they were named Alsatian Wolfdogs. So technically if the GSD did have wolf ancestry it could be classed as a wolfdog, although even if it did we are probably talking around F60 by now

There will always be argument over the point at which wolfdogs are no longer wolfdogs: in the USA they tend to have a different view, some say that anything less than 10% shouldn't be considered but there are a few more enlightened people who have come to realise that genetic inheritance is not quite so simple.

As for the Alsatian, it was always known as the German Shepherd in its country of origin. Von Stephanitz, who pretty much dominated the advancement of the breed in the early days, originally said there was wolf blood in there but later denied this. Constant examination of the stud book reveals several entries for the name 'wolf' but this is inconclusive as 'wolf' was a popular name for a dog. Genetics expert and long time GSD breeder Malcolm Willis says that at least one animal was known to have wolf blood but had little influence in the blood lines. It seems that there was some at the beginning but doubtful if it is of any importance. But like the shooting of President Kennedy people will always speculate as they love a good story.

In reality I doubt it maters as the wolf and dog are so closely related that the amount in the GSD would be indistinguishable from the dog.

Vantard wrote:While I don't want to get involved in any arguments over the NI, I think the 'any wolfblood' would be incredibly hard to prove. From the NI that I have met they seem to show no 'wolf' behavioural traits. The photos of the original stock look like typical 'low to no' content US dogs.

There are 3 wolfdog breeds with verified lineage that were developed by careful cross breeding with specific wolves, two of these were government sponsored programs. The Czech and Lupo Italiano both have around 25% wolf content which is both reflected in their appearance (though the Lupo was not bred to look like a wolf) and their behaviour to a lesser degree. The Saarloos was created by crossing of 2 lines of wolf a 25% line of working wolf with a 50% line; thus creating an animal with a higher wolf content which is reflected in their behaviour. The term 'wolf' (Lupo, or vlčák) or 'wolfdog' (wolfhonden) has been used to identify the origin of these breeds.

In the end it all comes down to what you want to believe.

Good post Vantard.

The reason for my posting only part of the post, but exactly as written, was because the rest was irrelevant to this topic and I saw it as being a personal attack on someone. My interest is solely on the dogs and how the breeds are moving forwards.

It seems strange to me however that arctic would do a complete U Turn regarding naming as soon as his friend started to breed Saarloos x NI and decided to rename them wolfalike dogs!! At the same time intending to register them with The British Wolfdog Club?? But now she has fallen out with them, coincidence???

As strange as it may seem to you Arctic, I am really not interested in getting into he said she said etc, but when things are done solely for £££££ and not for the benefit of owners of these "wolfalike dogs" who will assume that there is no wolf content, is just not right!!

Your interest on this forum to date has solely been to try to open up discussion on subjects well discussed on your other forum regarding founder dogs, and I for one can see exactly where you are heading with it all!! This forum, from what I can see, is about the breeds we have today, sharing experiences, not dredging up the same old cr*p that seems to keep the other forum going!! Have you not asked yourself why your friend no longer has ties with NIS, TIDA, Cry Wolf or Andre??? Can they all be wrong!!

jake wrote:

Vantard wrote:While I don't want to get involved in any arguments over the NI, I think the 'any wolfblood' would be incredibly hard to prove. From the NI that I have met they seem to show no 'wolf' behavioural traits. The photos of the original stock look like typical 'low to no' content US dogs.

There are 3 wolfdog breeds with verified lineage that were developed by careful cross breeding with specific wolves, two of these were government sponsored programs. The Czech and Lupo Italiano both have around 25% wolf content which is both reflected in their appearance (though the Lupo was not bred to look like a wolf) and their behaviour to a lesser degree. The Saarloos was created by crossing of 2 lines of wolf a 25% line of working wolf with a 50% line; thus creating an animal with a higher wolf content which is reflected in their behaviour. The term 'wolf' (Lupo, or vlčák) or 'wolfdog' (wolfhonden) has been used to identify the origin of these breeds.

In the end it all comes down to what you want to believe.

Good post Vantard.

The reason for my posting only part of the post, but exactly as written, was because the rest was irrelevant to this topic and I saw it as being a personal attack on someone. My interest is solely on the dogs and how the breeds are moving forwards.

It seems strange to me however that arctic would do a complete U Turn regarding naming as soon as his friend started to breed Saarloos x NI and decided to rename them wolfalike dogs!! At the same time intending to register them with The British Wolfdog Club?? But now she has fallen out with them, coincidence???

As strange as it may seem to you Arctic, I am really not interested in getting into he said she said etc, but when things are done solely for £££££ and not for the benefit of owners of these "wolfalike dogs" who will assume that there is no wolf content, is just not right!!

Your interest on this forum to date has solely been to try to open up discussion on subjects well discussed on your other forum regarding founder dogs, and I for one can see exactly where you are heading with it all!! This forum, from what I can see, is about the breeds we have today, sharing experiences, not dredging up the same old cr*p that seems to keep the other forum going!! Have you not asked yourself why your friend no longer has ties with NIS, TIDA, Cry Wolf or Andre??? Can they all be wrong!!

if it was irrelevant to this topic which is a thread about The origins of the wolfalike dog why did you post any of it, when the rest of my post refers to wolf hybrids? to cause trouble and rake over old ground maybe,

you say you are not involved with all the he said she said, but you keep raking over the same old ground, how many times have you mentioned SC now?

what have I done a complete U turn on? I have said that I am unsure of exactly what we all class as a wolfdog, as we all seem to have differing opinions of what a wolfdog is, and I started a thread to find out what we all thought of as a wolfdog, I also asked questions about the founder dogs of the NI on a 'questions' thread, it was you that started the discussion on outcrossing

I thought the whole point of a discussion forum was to have a discussion

but I will not be drawn into any of your he said, she said pointless arguments

Apologies to admin if I have posted in the wrong section Both threads seem to be merged but feel free to move to the other section, I think it is relative to both threads.

The relevance to my question was the name wolfalike This is a thread about wolfalike dogs What was the deciding factor in you changing your mind in the re-naming of dogs with wolf content, from wolfdogs to wolfalikes? As for the post I quoted from you, the section I posted was relevant in the naming of wolfalike/wolfdods was it not, the rest of the post was aimed at gossip and hearsay from the beginnings of the NI. As Eddie is no longer here we will NEVER know the facts, its all down to who you choose to believe. Myself I want to concentrate on the here and now and defend the wolfalike dogs.

I personally have no gripe with SC apart from being banned for quoting a post (that has not had a response yet)

Arctic can you honestly expect any answers from NI breed clubs when you have been involved with the slating of the NI and there breed clubs.

Right you lot I have now merged these two threads back together, may I suggest those of you wishing to discuss the ORIGINAL wolf a like dogs to start a seperate thread to discuss this and those wishing to discuss outcrossing use this thread...

Thanks for trying to stay on topic