The origins of the wolfalike dog

A hot topic for the moment seems to be outcrossing. I just wondered what everyones views of this were??

Personally I see it as a good thing considering all of the issues surrounding health. NI, Utonagan and Tamaskan all seem to have health issues that need to be addressed. Are the gene pools large enough to sustain the present dogs without outcrossing??

jake wrote:A hot topic for the moment seems to be outcrossing. I just wondered what everyones views of this were??

Personally I see it as a good thing considering all of the issues surrounding health. NI, Utonagan and Tamaskan all seem to have health issues that need to be addressed. Are the gene pools large enough to sustain the present dogs without outcrossing??

sorry i disagree i dont think the health issues are as bad as people are making out,where you have clubs like the NIS and BUA monitoring there breed there seems to be very few health issues,its more people breeding willy nilly and people trying to run the breeds down

but im not saying outcrossing is a bad thing when needed

Hi Sally

If you look on the BUA website you will see they have just crossed Ute x GSD. The reason I assume is that the gene pool is small and there are some health issues. Positive steps if that is the case. Maybe we will get someone on more qualified to answer (BUA). As far as I can see the only NI site not now outcrossing is NIS, they of course have the largest of all the breed clubs, the others are mixing CSV, Saarloos and GSD because of alleged health issues.

I do agree however that there is a lot of scare mongering and personal attacks on individuals that give these dogs a bad name.

I believe that out crossing is essential to maintain a breed.

I am very aware of health issues in some of the wolf look alike breeds with to much line breeding, this has caused a number of problems.

I would outcross when needed to produce a better dog.

In the lines I have done this with I am pleased with the results.

I know its very obvious that there are health problems within the varying "crossed" wolf look alike breeds. I also find it strange that one would want to continue with a breed that has health problems because the original dogs used to produce it were not health tested in the first place! By using the term outcross it is usually meant by using a dog of the same breed but from a completely different line. Otherwise it is a cross of one breed to another. I think the use of "crosses" of similar type is a useful additive especially if one has the knowledge of both parents and theirs before them. This can not only widen gene pools it can help to reduce problems within a breed although it can sometimes bring to the surface attributes that may be undesirable!

I agree that every breed should outcross to a completely different blood line at least once every few years and by this I mean ALL pedigree breeds you can see why by looking at the mess a lot of Pedigree breeds are in...

All pedigree breeds hae been established by first inbreeding and then close line breeding and then line breeding, every pedigree breed goes back to 2 or a few original dogs... The bearded Collie for example started with 2 dogs put to a efw Polish Lowlands and look how many there are now..so it does work and it has been the way it has been done...The Utes and Inuits started in the 80s a lifetime away in dog breeding, there where hardly any health tests done then on any breeds, they started using the old fashioned tried and proven methods....

After all the information was given last year on how bad The pedigree world really ws with regards health it gave everyone a wake up call in my opinion... beliefs need to be re-thought. I do however think that when creating a breed line breeding has to be done but very carefully, once a breed is fairly established it should have enough lines to maintain itself but also allow new blood in as I said before.

Where BUA and our breeding program is concerned we do not have enough lines never mind healthy ones, so we are basically starting again, with some carefully selected Ute lines, some Inuit, GSD, Mal, MalxGSD starting from the very beginning as founders, we hope to have at least 25 different lines before we close the registration and input of new founders. Once this is done only when we are happy with what we have ther will be a proviso that at least every 2 years a new line is used to maintain and expand the breed at all times.

my northern inuit is a happy healthy dog with a good hip score,my wolfdog was neither

My older girl is happy healthy had a 0 elbow and 10 hipscore, she has a cast iron stomach and great coat. All the NI's i have met (hundreds now) have also been happy and healthy. I think a lot of the so called 'issues' in the NI are greatly exaggerated and are scare tatics to aid sales of NI crosses or to justifiy it. The BVA hipscore has come down in the last 12 months by one point and a lot of the scores coming back are 10 or below for NIS reg dogs. The key is good breeding and good breeding practice from healthy stock not just rushing to outcrossing to solve all the problems when if done badly could send things the other way and intoduce new problems.

Dont get me wrong outcrossing, or rather it should be called just crossing as out crossing gen tends to mean getting a dog from different lines but the same breed, has its place. If done carefully with a lot of planning and forthought the benifits can be seen (look at the new Dallies they want to KC reg) but i dont feel the NI needs it.

jake wrote:A hot topic for the moment seems to be outcrossing. I just wondered what everyones views of this were??

Personally I see it as a good thing considering all of the issues surrounding health. NI, Utonagan and Tamaskan all seem to have health issues that need to be addressed. Are the gene pools large enough to sustain the present dogs without outcrossing??

jake

IMO outcrossing is the way forward, even the kennel club has cracked down on inbreeding as they can see the damage that has been done to some of the KC breeds.

If there are no unrelated dogs, what could you outcross to? without going back to dogs of the founding breeds. The problem I see with this and the NI is that no one knows, or they won't say what the founding dogs were.

but the northern inuits were nothing to do with eddie harrison,only a few of her dogs were used.there was a husky used dose that mean the breeder of that husky is the creator of the northern inuit.

I have seen alot of the pics of Eddies dogs, and I never saw one that looked like a wolf IMO, a lovely big Mal/Husky Buck, and a few other really nice dogs, after breeding and being involved in the NO CONTENT breeds I can see how easy it is to be confused...lets face it everyone is breeding dogs to look like wolves so why is it when a breeder gets it right "Its a wolf" , Even if she did have a few hybrids they are so far behind that the blood will be completely lost in the mix before any registries where closed.

I really dont think any wolf look a like breeder worth their salt would even dream of reverting to that old soap...what would be the point...we are creating dogs with NO wolf content...so no-one wants any...there is a great pleasure in acheiving a wolf look a like without "cheating" and sticking in WolfDog or Wolf Hybrid....lets face it if you breed a wolfdog/hybrid what do you expect the pups to look like not much of a challenge to those of us who strive to create the look with out the wolf input...

When you look at the lines of NI there are a few different lines now...and a few breeders off doing there own thing, Im sure if the need arose they could find a line far removed from each other...I think they have done a great job creating a look a like and also gaining a good type and consistancy, the pups over the last few years have been stunning... and also they have health testing in place, records are kept correctly... good job I say

The British Ute have brought in new founders and we are starting with the same mix, so watch how long it takes to get the right look with out wolf content and then maybe folks will see that most the Eddie stories are just that, and also may prove that yes you can create that look just from dogs.

Also good point Sally, Eddie sold Wolf Dogs, Julie Kelham and Jan Farrington bought a few original dogs from her and then started there own breeds, JK founded the Northern Inuit and Jan Farrington, Lyn Sharkey, Nadia Carlyle, Dawn Latham and Lynb founded the Utonagan, both breeds following there own candle...

and although its Utes Im in well look at how well the NI has done in comparison to the fact we have to start again Speaks volumes...well done JK.

yes Buck is in the pedigree of my NI, and I have seen a picture of him, not wolflike at all

This is only 4 generations back though, so could someone clear up for me when the dogs were pure bred NI to NI with a closed gene pool, 4 generations doesn't seem that long ago.

why dont you go on the northern inuit societys forum and pm one of the committee members,im sure they would be happy to answer your questions

Well if the bitches where all 5yrs old (just in theory) when they had the litter that could have been 20years ago couldnt it?? Just counting how many generations back really isnt a good case for time factor... but yes if you want definate dates best to ask NIS, the Utes havent really ever properly closed their registries so they would be diluted even further, if that was of course the case which I am personally still highly doubtful about

Would be nice to see pics of your dog if Buck is only 4 back, does your dog look anything like him do you think?

I certainly don,t agree with dogs being advertised as Wolf lookalike dogs when they in fact have Saarloos x NI in the background

"the main purpose of these matings was to create sound breeding stock for the future"

This is not a look alike

Ive heard a lot about Eddie Harrison, from people claiming to be her right hand woman or whatever, my personal opinion is, she had a mish mash of dogs, kept no records, did no health testing and I really dont think there was even a proper breeding programme in place, just a 'lets mate this to that and see what we get' kinda attitude.
Ive also read about my unhealthy NI, really, the only time Ive had to visit a vet in 10 years is for a wasp sting and a bitch with Pyo, unfortunately, I did lose a dog at 3 years old from a brain anurism and a bitch 2 years ago from septaceamia, neither are heireditory (sp). I think if Jk and the Ute people hadn't gone their own ways, these wolf look a like breeds would be in dire straits. the BUA breeding programme is extremely well thought out and I wish them all the best.
I dont have a problem with other breeds or crosses, if they are done right and arent just a money making scheme, what I do hate are the politics involved, my view is, if the NI is so bad, go away and do your own thing but leave the NI alone and dont believe everything you read on the net.
Buck was in one of my dogs peds, but way way back.

Moonz wrote:Ive heard a lot about Eddie Harrison, from people claiming to be her right hand woman or whatever, my personal opinion is, she had a mish mash of dogs, kept no records, did no health testing and I really dont think there was even a proper breeding programme in place, just a 'lets mate this to that and see what we get' kinda attitude.
Ive also read about my unhealthy NI, really, the only time Ive had to visit a vet in 10 years is for a wasp sting and a bitch with Pyo, unfortunately, I did lose a dog at 3 years old from a brain anurism and a bitch 2 years ago from septaceamia, neither are heireditory (sp). I think if Jk and the Ute people hadn't gone their own ways, these wolf look a like breeds would be in dire straits. the BUA breeding programme is extremely well thought out and I wish them all the best.
I dont have a problem with other breeds or crosses, if they are done right and arent just a money making scheme, what I do hate are the politics involved, my view is, if the NI is so bad, go away and do your own thing but leave the NI alone and dont believe everything you read on the net.
Buck was in one of my dogs peds, but way way back.

I would agree with you on that

I am not claiming to have known Eddie Harrison, just going on what I have learned by talking to someone who did

I agree there were no accurate records, no health checks, just a mish mash of what looked wolfy, (or in the case of Buck didn't look wolfy) all bred together. What I was trying to say in my other post, but didn't put it very well was that were some dogs in NI and Ute foundation that were bred by Eddie Harrison. And due to the poor record keeping (of Eddie Harrison), no one knows for sure what breeds these dogs are, and due to all the scandal in the press at the time (researching newspaper archives) Eddie Harrison's dogs could have included dogs other than Sibe, Mal and GSD.

I also hate all the politics involved, if breeders have the view that they need to outcross, and they are not claiming that the dogs are NI, then that is their choice.

editited to add

Buck (unknown breed or cross) is on Sapphire's pedigree as G.G.Sire through these dogs Mahlek Lady Jane, Mahlek Nanook, Buck

and on the Sapphires sires side 'Call of the wild' is 6 generations back, so Sapphire is closer (in generations) to Buck than to Call of the wild

I would have thought that in genetic terms, the amount of generations would have more impact on diluting genes, than the amount of years

jake wrote:I certainly don,t agree with dogs being advertised as Wolf lookalike dogs when they in fact have Saarloos x NI in the background

"the main purpose of these matings was to create sound breeding stock for the future"

This is not a look alike

not sure what you mean about not 'Wolf lookalike dogs' do you mean that they don't look wolfy, or because they have Saarloos dog crosses in the breeding they are something else

Totally agree Moonz... I feel too it was the drama more than facts we have all been led to beleive..and i too think that Eddie didnt keep good records(if any at all) but to be fair she probably never realised how many people this would affect in the future...

I do think especially the Utes there has been R Collie and probably a few other breeds involved... but the end result has been not so bad

Artic I totally agree about the amount of Generations and dilution, sorry I didnt write my post very well, I just meant that the amount of years between Eddie and now are really not that many when you think how long it takes to establish a new breed, and that even though some pedigrees have the "original" Eddie dogs in the back they could have been over 20 years ago so havent been included by the founders of the Inuit and Ute as they where fathers or mothers to the dogs bought from her to start the respective breeds... Hope that makes sense...I confuse myself sometimes

I too hate the politics, seems that some breeders instead of earning respect in their own right by being good at their job , feel that by slating others and putting people off gives them credit...it doesnt in my eyes, it makes them look bitter and envious....and it certainly doesnt do any of our breeds any good...a lot of genuine breeders are working very well together now...for example NIS and BUA the 2 largest breed clubs for NI and Ute, we have shared shows and get togethers for our members and we all get on great and the dogs love it...we also have been kindly allowed to buy in some gorg Inuit pups to hopefully incorporate in our new program, this has been a wonderful chance for both breeds to work alongside each other and we do it well...this has happened because both factions priorities are our dogs, our breed and our members, not trying to be better than anyone or otherwise...I wish more factions could be like this but it seems to be impossible...

s long as everyone puts the dogs first then we all get on great and I for one love meeting up with other owners...

arctic wrote:

jake wrote:I certainly don,t agree with dogs being advertised as Wolf lookalike dogs when they in fact have Saarloos x NI in the background

"the main purpose of these matings was to create sound breeding stock for the future"

This is not a look alike

not sure what you mean about not 'Wolf lookalike dogs' do you mean that they don't look wolfy, or because they have Saarloos dog crosses in the breeding they are something else

Sorry arctic probably did,nt word it properly either I meant that it looks as though some breeders are trying to include Saarloos in the breeding programme and pass the dogs off as lookalikes rather than what they are, Wolfdogs/Hybrids. This to me is something which should not be allowed to happen as Saarloos/CSV need specialized homes with experienced owners, whereas the lookalike (no wolf content) is promoted as a family pet. Again it just leads to confusion over these dogs, especially when you have two factions (BUA and NIS)working hard to promote their dogs as sociable family pets.

(No offence meant to Saarloos owners, I think they are an amazing breed in their own right)

Lanie wrote: Totally agree Moonz... I feel too it was the drama more than facts we have all been led to beleive..and i too think that Eddie didnt keep good records(if any at all) but to be fair she probably never realised how many people this would affect in the future...

I do think especially the Utes there has been R Collie and probably a few other breeds involved... but the end result has been not so bad

Artic I totally agree about the amount of Generations and dilution, sorry I didnt write my post very well, I just meant that the amount of years between Eddie and now are really not that many when you think how long it takes to establish a new breed, and that even though some pedigrees have the "original" Eddie dogs in the back they could have been over 20 years ago so havent been included by the founders of the Inuit and Ute as they where fathers or mothers to the dogs bought from her to start the respective breeds... Hope that makes sense...I confuse myself sometimes

I too hate the politics, seems that some breeders instead of earning respect in their own right by being good at their job , feel that by slating others and putting people off gives them credit...it doesnt in my eyes, it makes them look bitter and envious....and it certainly doesnt do any of our breeds any good...a lot of genuine breeders are working very well together now...for example NIS and BUA the 2 largest breed clubs for NI and Ute, we have shared shows and get togethers for our members and we all get on great and the dogs love it...we also have been kindly allowed to buy in some gorg Inuit pups to hopefully incorporate in our new program, this has been a wonderful chance for both breeds to work alongside each other and we do it well...this has happened because both factions priorities are our dogs, our breed and our members, not trying to be better than anyone or otherwise...I wish more factions could be like this but it seems to be impossible...

s long as everyone puts the dogs first then we all get on great and I for one love meeting up with other owners...

Great post and totally agree. Sorry Arctic, wasnt having a go . You read allsorts on the web, we can all make up lies and people reading them will be convinced its all true, Ive met several people who knew Eddie, mostly conflicting stories, I think she was a vulnerable old lady and got conned a lot, 2 people Ive spoken to agree on many things about her, 1 of them being there were definately NO wolves locked in her barn, thats kinda an urban legend methinks.
I too think the Sarloos and the CWD are lovely dogs in their own right and dont see the need for crossing them, AND, if the NI is so unhealthy, would anyone really use them in their breeding plans, why not breed pure, we are always hearing that old chestnut 'we are doing this to improve the health of these dogs' what a crock, grrrrrr makes my blood boil.

jake wrote:I certainly don,t agree with dogs being advertised as Wolf lookalike dogs when they in fact have Saarloos x NI in the background

"the main purpose of these matings was to create sound breeding stock for the future"

This is not a look alike

Can you please explain your reasoning on this? Just because a dog has Saarloos x NI in it, it doesn't stop it being a wolf lookalike - I agree it stops it being an NI.

Not quoting anyone in particular here, but when people say they have a healthy NI, with good hips, elbows etc., unless that dog/bitch is bred from there is no telling what hidden problems there may be that wouldn't show up until it was bred from - and even then the problems may not manifest themselves for a couple of years or more.

I agree with the people who say that there are a lot of healthy NI - but would amend that to say that there are a lot of 'apparently' healthy NI. Apparently, that is until they are bred from and prove otherwise.

shoshone wolfdogs wrote:I believe that out crossing is essential to maintain a breed.

I am very aware of health issues in some of the wolf look alike breeds with to much line breeding, this has caused a number of problems.

I would outcross when needed to produce a better dog.

In the lines I have done this with I am pleased with the results.

Hi Jake whats a better dog?

I dont have these dogs, however i have boxer, the breed is till young (120) years old. and there were outcrossing and mixed breeding in several lines of boxer to produce natural stort(docked) dogs going to corgis.
Why corgis they are nowt like boxers, but they do have a natural short tail, did they make the boxer any healthier?
No just one with a short tail.(In some lines not all)
What sort of changes are you hoping to achieve, by out crossing, outcrossing in my world is classed as a bigmistake unless, your outcrossin with same lines or simlar with a few diffrent lines, however outcrossing to a diffrent breed of dog, makes it all the more worse, as once you outcross, you then have the bad as well as the good from that breed, and as GSD have a multitude of health concerns of there own, including HD,which breeders, of Reg NI breeders are tested, and breeding low scored dogs, i can only think of trouble ahead, please someone enlighten me as why the GSD is thinking of being used, when there are healthy NI dogs being bred anyway.

Sansorrella wrote:

jake wrote:I certainly don,t agree with dogs being advertised as Wolf lookalike dogs when they in fact have Saarloos x NI in the background

"the main purpose of these matings was to create sound breeding stock for the future"

This is not a look alike

Can you please explain your reasoning on this? Just because a dog has Saarloos x NI in it, it doesn't stop it being a wolf lookalike - I agree it stops it being an NI.

Not quoting anyone in particular here, but when people say they have a healthy NI, with good hips, elbows etc., unless that dog/bitch is bred from there is no telling what hidden problems there may be that wouldn't show up until it was bred from - and even then the problems may not manifest themselves for a couple of years or more.

I agree with the people who say that there are a lot of healthy NI - but would amend that to say that there are a lot of 'apparently' healthy NI. Apparently, that is until they are bred from and prove otherwise.

sour grapes.
the northern inuit society has plenty of healthy breeding dogs