Hip Scoring Why bother!!!

Susie Mon Feb 01, 2010 6:24 am

I just thought that I would start this thread as I am dismayed at the reaction from the utonagan breed registry to remove ALL of the health information that was posted recently. Questions asked by me, which included Hip scores, Eye tests and Addisons.

I am a member of that "community" and have not posted elsewhere regarding my concerns, I thought I should ask my questions directly. This has not been received well.

One of the questions I asked was should a dog with a hip score of 31 (8-23) whose dam had a hip score of 66 (31-35) when the breed standard is 20, be bred from? This dogs grandmother also had a score of 71 (36-35) and her brother had a score of 106 (53-53). There is also a documented case of a puppy being PTS who had no hip sockets who came from the same lines. I asked the question as I had considered taking one of these pups until I had researched and thought it only fair to share what I knew, for the sake of the new puppy owners. This dog has been bred from and has produced 8 puppies.

What is everyone else,s views? Personally I think it is a disgrace. Evil or Very Mad

Susie Mon Feb 01, 2010 4:49 pm

Thats me banned from their forum now, just as I thought after I made my post today

They left me no option but to post elsewhere after I was basically told that if I asked any more controversial questions I would be banned Evil or Very Mad

So be it

The gloves are now well and truly off Evil or Very Mad

Lainyb Mon Feb 01, 2010 5:56 pm

That is shocking that you have been banned Susie, FFS you only asked a simple question that should've been answered openly and honestly. IMO having removed the entire threads shows that either they have something to hide or afraid of their current puppy owners and prospective puppy owners reading the posts and asking questions.

Well done you for doing your research before you bought one of the said puppies couldve just saved yourself a ton of heartbreak there.

Well Done you

Susie Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:20 am

These are the dogs to save any confusion and to keep things in the open. These scores can be found in several places posted publicly on the internet.

Dog in question SULIN MAELONA@ DONEHOGAWA 8-23
Mother of this dog SULIN YANA 31-35 Yana's sister Sulin Cheyenne@Recall 27-27
Grandmother SULIN INCA 53-53
Inca's Brother SULIN SHIMBA @ RECALL 53-53
There are others.

I cannot believe that with this information they continue to breed from this line of dogs Evil or Very Mad

Please all future puppy owners don,t believe everything you are told, research, research and more research. Lyn Barraclough can certainly talk the talk, boy can she talk, but you will NEVER get a straight answer.

Hip Dysplasia is only the tip of the iceberg Evil or Very Mad

Fade to Grey Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:44 am

thats really inertesting susie, because from what i've read you've been answered on every question you have asked. and yet you're now bringing up the same information to which you've had replies from this other forum.

Fade to Grey Tue Feb 02, 2010 1:55 am

and information which all parties and clubs know about.

Susie Tue Feb 02, 2010 2:13 am

Fade to Grey !!! Interesting June/Lynn which one? You know it is polite to introduce yourself on a forum before entering a debate.

However with regards to your reply, what answers would that be, the ramblings of Lyn none of which answered any questions (lots to say but no answers) Lyn who blames everyone else for her own mistakes, Lyn,s way or the highway!! Or June who just takes everything that Lyn says to be gospel, after all she is the breed advisor with TIDA, what a joke.

The question remains would you breed from this dog and why, Fade to grey maybe you can give us your opinion?

Lainyb Tue Feb 02, 2010 3:46 am

I can only answer this question from a prospective stud owners prespective and IMO.......if my boy comes back with a hip scoring of 8:23, I would NEVER breed from him. IMO that is way too uneven and 11 points above the breed mean score.

Especially with seeing the hip scores of the ancestors behind this dog, this is scarey stuff indeed for the new puppy owners Sad

JohnB Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:15 am

That doesnt sound good at all. As an ex GSD man I know how important these things are. I am saddened to see how you have been treated Susie and commend you for standing your ground. I really dont understand why breeders feel the need to hide these things from pup owners. I for one will certainly be aware of these things now thank you for your honesty, and good luck in your search.

Is this a problem in the Utonagan then should I look for a different wolfalike?, could someone point me in the direction of where the best place to research these things are?

Fade to Grey Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:46 am

i am neither june nor lyn i am Jazz on the forum, also known a Bex Saffhill. Check the facebook if you don't believe me.

Fade to Grey Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:52 am

my opinion is a civil one and that is that both parties, the BUA and TUBA, need to both get along better because frankly it is putting people off of the utes as a whole. this includes the british ute as after all we share the same history. i am not going to go into genetics or anything because honestly i cant give you those answers. i am just here to say that from what i have read on the other forum you have been given lots of info, and lyn has said countless times that she is willing to speak with you on the phone by email etc etc. i have respect for both parties and wish only to be a neatural member of this forum to talk about wolflike breeds.

Ty-Ohni Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:56 am

JohnB wrote: That doesnt sound good at all. As an ex GSD man I know how important these things are. I am saddened to see how you have been treated Susie and commend you for standing your ground. I really dont understand why breeders feel the need to hide these things from pup owners. I for one will certainly be aware of these things now thank you for your honesty, and good luck in your search.

Is this a problem in the Utonagan then should I look for a different wolfalike?, could someone point me in the direction of where the best place to research these things are?

John I am not even going to start talking about what I think of these breeding practices I will only get myself into trouble lol. I am glad that Susie has stood up with her info regarding this, well done.

My advise to you John is keep researching, speak to as many people as you can and draw your own conclusions. The BUA website and Forum have lots of information regarding health issues and everything else ute related so might be a good place to start. Their are good breeders out there you just have to find them.

Good luck
Sandra x

Fade to Grey Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:12 am

JohnB wrote: That doesnt sound good at all. As an ex GSD man I know how important these things are. I am saddened to see how you have been treated Susie and commend you for standing your ground. I really dont understand why breeders feel the need to hide these things from pup owners. I for one will certainly be aware of these things now thank you for your honesty, and good luck in your search.

Is this a problem in the Utonagan then should I look for a different wolfalike?, could someone point me in the direction of where the best place to research these things are?

i would say just look around any and every website you can find about the breed. there are loads of groups and independant websites out there. i would say draw your own conclusions from all the information you can find. i wish you all the best and good luck Smile

JohnB Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:35 am

Thank you both for your advise I shall go and do a lot more searching I think.

Lanie Tue Feb 02, 2010 5:00 pm

I am seriously concerned over the fact that this mating has been done and even more concerned wit the blase attitude shown by the breeder and her "advisor", Susie you have every right to ask these questions and you should be told truthfully the answers, may I point out while on the subject of Lyn telling the truth and answering all questions, she didnt tell the truth when I asked her if Timber in a pedigree of a seriously ill dog was Tot-Tim my girls great grand dad, she categorically denied it I found that out about the time we parted company when I spoke to the owner and was given a copy of the pedigree...that was me asking as a prospective breeder of her lines as she likes to say....so does that beg the question that you all are being sucked in too?? She also told Susie...correct me if Im wrong, that she herself started BUA now that was a real big surprise to me hahaha and Ive been here since a year before it took off lols

Fade to Grey wrote:my opinion is a civil one and that is that both parties, the BUA and TUBA, need to both get along better because frankly it is putting people off of the utes as a whole. this includes the british ute as after all we share the same history. i am not going to go into genetics or anything because honestly i cant give you those answers. i am just here to say that from what i have read on the other forum you have been given lots of info, and lyn has said countless times that she is willing to speak with you on the phone by email etc etc. i have respect for both parties and wish only to be a neatural member of this forum to talk about wolflike breeds.

Bex all we want is to get along, with ALL owners and share info, but some people just want to cause rifts, deny the truth and generally cause bad feeling between us all, that same person has done the same for years, with TUS, TUA, UDC, and then us.....all these people cant be wrong can they???

Fade to Grey Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:55 am

Hi Lanie, nice to speak with you again.
one can argue that the background to every utonagan is a little shady.

when i finally get around to looking for my own dog when i have finished university and have my own place i can garentee that i will do all the research i can (even if i dont go for a ute) and will take everything with a pinch of salt and hopefully make the best decision. this means i'll be on the phone to as many breeders as i can to get the best picture i can.

and when i do get my future dog i will not be joining any groups as to hopefully be neutral with everyone, and thus being a independant owner of one of these magestic pets.

Susie Wed Feb 03, 2010 8:44 am

Fade to Grey wrote:Hi Lanie, nice to speak with you again.
one can argue that the background to every utonagan is a little shady.

when i finally get around to looking for my own dog when i have finished university and have my own place i can garentee that i will do all the research i can (even if i dont go for a ute) and will take everything with a pinch of salt and hopefully make the best decision. this means i'll be on the phone to as many breeders as i can to get the best picture i can.

and when i do get my future dog i will not be joining any groups as to hopefully be neutral with everyone, and thus being a independant owner of one of these magestic pets.

Hi Bex apologies for thinking you were someone else Embarassed

It is genuinely nice to see you on here.

After having caught up on this thread I have to say Bex you are to be commended for your attitude regarding research but don,t expect to get any praise for it. Quite the reverse actually, everyone is instantly suspicious of you, how could you know so much? If you do your research as I have done you will not always like what you find. When I first went onto Junes forum on my very first post, they did,nt know anything about me, I was told there was a rescue available and was I interested. That was enough to set the alarm bells ringing. I politely declined and did the same regarding a litter of puppies. I was originally really interested in having a Sulin pup affraid

Anyway you can imagine how surprised and shocked I was when that particular line of dogs kept popping up on the internet with huge hip scores. Then to hear that Lona was being bred from with her hips and family history affraid

I,m sorry but I can,t, and should,nt, just say nothing. All I have done is state facts, not hear say or gossip, just facts. They are openly available on the internet so if you are going to be as thorough as you say you are then you WILL find them.

If you plan to own and breed, as your mother does, then surely you would want to breed from dogs who have been tested and the results understood not ignored. I am sure your mum looks for the best Dallies she can find who have the best health results, no-one should compromise on health and cause needless suffering for the animals or owners.

jake Wed Feb 03, 2010 1:06 pm

Susie wrote:These are the dogs to save any confusion and to keep things in the open. These scores can be found in several places posted publicly on the internet.

Dog in question SULIN MAELONA@ DONEHOGAWA 8-23
Mother of this dog SULIN YANA 31-35 Yana's sister Sulin Cheyenne@Recall 27-27
Grandmother SULIN INCA 53-53
Inca's Brother SULIN SHIMBA @ RECALL 53-53
There are others.

I cannot believe that with this information they continue to breed from this line of dogs Please all future puppy owners don,t believe everything you are told, research, research and more research. Lyn Barraclough can certainly talk the talk, boy can she talk, but you will NEVER get a straight answer.

Hip Dysplasia is only the tip of the iceberg

Unbelievable, well done on coming forward and sharing. Evil or Very Mad

Fade to Grey Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:46 pm

jake wrote:Unbelievable, well done on coming forward and sharing.

this information is readily avalible online, as other members know.

Fade to Grey Wed Feb 03, 2010 2:50 pm

Susie wrote:

Hi Bex apologies for thinking you were someone else It is genuinely nice to see you on here.

After having caught up on this thread I have to say Bex you are to be commended for your attitude regarding research but don,t expect to get any praise for it. Quite the reverse actually, everyone is instantly suspicious of you, how could you know so much? If you do your research as I have done you will not always like what you find. When I first went onto Junes forum on my very first post, they did,nt know anything about me, I was told there was a rescue available and was I interested. That was enough to set the alarm bells ringing. I politely declined and did the same regarding a litter of puppies. I was originally really interested in having a Sulin pup

I find this very agressive and would rather not get into an argument with you or any other member over anything, it's not in my nature.

I know very well that information may not always be happy and lighthearted, believe me i spend all my time researching things that make me very uncomfortable yet i still have to do it if i want a top degree.

Susie Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:47 pm

Fade to Grey wrote:
Susie wrote:

Hi Bex apologies for thinking you were someone else It is genuinely nice to see you on here.

After having caught up on this thread I have to say Bex you are to be commended for your attitude regarding research but don,t expect to get any praise for it. Quite the reverse actually, everyone is instantly suspicious of you, how could you know so much? If you do your research as I have done you will not always like what you find. When I first went onto Junes forum on my very first post, they did,nt know anything about me, I was told there was a rescue available and was I interested. That was enough to set the alarm bells ringing. I politely declined and did the same regarding a litter of puppies. I was originally really interested in having a Sulin pup

I find this very agressive and would rather not get into an argument with you or any other member over anything, it's not in my nature.

I know very well that information may not always be happy and lighthearted, believe me i spend all my time researching things that make me very uncomfortable yet i still have to do it if i want a top degree.

What??? Aggressive??? Where???

As you can see quite clearly I was talking about myself. I actually praised you in that post for being prepared to do your homework. I most certainly was not trying to get into an argument with you, shame you saw it like that. It,s all really par for the course for me these days!!

Glad to see some of the missing posts have been re-instated on Junes forum at least some good has come of this (IF they have not been tampered with!!)

Fade to Grey Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:49 pm

i must have misread. i apologise. Embarassed

Susie Wed Feb 03, 2010 4:05 pm

Fade to Grey wrote:i must have misread. i apologise.

Susie Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:28 pm

Well, well, well looks like the thread running elsewhere has been locked, mmmmmmm I wonder why. Evil or Very Mad

Even the national newspapers believe in naming and shaming which is what I AM trying to do.

So where to start, Tim and Hanuka. Hanuka was sired by Tims brother (uncle/niece). Next Tim and Inca hips 36-35 (father/daughter) produced cheyenne hip score 27-27, Yana hip score 31/35 and Lief (died young) who was put to Akasma (half brother/sister) who in turn produced a pup Shakira (no hip sockets died of a siezure pos epilepsy).
Cheyenne hips 27-27 was put to Shimber hip score 53-53 (half brother/sister) produced Bibi and Naja severe HD Totals of 100 and 106.

Are these the actions of a responsible ethical breeder. This is the same person who is breed advisor with TIDA Evil or Very Mad

June what were you thinking, I was honestly shocked that with this background you would even consider breeding from Lona. There is more, that is just the tip of the iceberg.

Now how was that for research, I did,nt have to look far believe me. As for "knowing so much" I have had dogs long enough in my life to know that you must always research the breeders and lines. I am not some daft wee lassie. Everything here is well documented facts and anyone that thinks that this is not a problem and a disgrace is as guilty as the breeders. Evil or Very Mad

Lainyb Thu Feb 04, 2010 2:47 pm

Ethical, they dont know the meaning of the word!!!!!

Here's where im sitting rite now, I've got a great stunner of a dog, I know im obviously biased. Just got his hip-score back yesterday (worst day of ma life) he is 15:8, now he suffered with an episode of HOD when he was just a young puppy.

Ive spoken to the senior vet who says it could possibly have contributed to his score being 5 higher than the BVA mean score average (which has now dropped down to 18, well done to the low scored dogs!!!), but with having SULIN Inca, Hanuka and Tim in his back-ground, am I hell as like gonna take the chance of MY dog siring a litter of cripples.

You can bleet on about enviromental till you are blue in the bloomin face, I just feel SO sorry for the new puppy owners.

I know i could use the enviromental route and probably get to use ma dog as a stud, but to have an innocent puppy owner a few years down the line have to go thro the rollercoaster of emotions that i have went thro in the last 24 hours with their beloved family pet having problems with their hips.......nope no thank you not on ma conscience......at least ill can sleep soundly in me bed in me old age and look back and say ive done the right thing for ma dog and the breed on the whole!!!......CAN YOU!!!!!!!!! Evil or Very Mad

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