Tamaskan DNA testing

Hi all,

I hope I'm not breaking the rules by posting this, but I thought perhaps some you might want to know that I have tried to organise DNA testing so that the wolf or not debate could be solved once and for all. You may lock this immidiately, I just wanted this to be seen to everyone here.

I contacted the Tamaskan breeders with this email last Friday (4th of Dec):

"Good morning all,

This is going to all of you and I'm sincerely hoping none of you is
insulted by me contacting you. We may have our differences of opinion and
some of us have even had a rough history together but I am willing to work
beyond that in order to give you a chance to prove the Tamaskan history
once and for all. I am truly sorry if any of you feels harrassed by the
website as our only intention is to find out the truth behind tamaskan dog
history. So please hear what I have in mind.

As I'm sure you all know the recent discussion on
https://wolflikedog.forumotion.net/general-discussion-f47/tamaskan-debate-t71.htm
. As this was cut short, I thought I'd contact you all with a proposal.
This idea was given to me by the nick Jingles, or Ms. Jenny Smith on the
mentioned forum. I talk about taking DNA samples from the alledged cws
mixes and wolfdogs. I have already contacted the local DNA lab Finnzymes
(they do formal DNA sampling for the FKC) and asked them if this is ok and
have had their approval.

I suggest that we find an outsider to take samples from some of the dogs
mentioned on our website. These dogs being Jodie at Blustag, Heidi at
Blustag, Blustag Little Bear, Dingo at Blustag and Jackal at Blustag. I am
also inviting samples from any of you who want their dog's pedigree looked
into i.e. Summer and Jaeger. As I havent' received information of
Whitefang's owners, I cant ask his sample. If any of you know his
whereabouts, please forward my suggestion to them as well and lert me know
how to contact them. As the dogs are not a registered breed, the Finnish
lab is ready to sample them un-officially, meaning the samples do not have
to be taken by a vet. These samples can be hair samples (with follicles)
thus they can be easily sent by mail and directly to the lab. Thus none of
us "on this side" have to be involved. The sampling kit is free and they
are available so I can just pick them up and send them to you. I am
willing to pay for the analysis myself, so all I ask of you are the
samples, nothing more. We are taking samples here from a few dogs as well,
and I am willing organise someone to go to Reijo's place to take samples
from Oskari and Boogie.

Now, the only problem is of course the person who samples the dogs. They
would have to know which individual is which. But I'm sure that is only a
matter of a little asking around. I'm open to your suggestions and willing
to co-operate with you in order to get this solved and get a best possible
evidence of this.

Thank you in advance, I'm looking forward to your reply. I'm hoping we can
put aside our past arguments and work together in order to prove this for
the benefit of both parties.

Best regards,

Tuuli Salmi (ex Kontio)
tuuli.salm(at)jyu.fi"

None of them have replied to me but they have posted comments like this on their own forum:

Blustag:

"There is NO way that dna samples will work. There is so much room for fraud and I am not going to take part in any of this crap which is exactly what it is. PLEASE people, enjoy your beautiful dogs and let this all go to the refuse can which is where it belongs! I have neither the time nor the desire to go any further with this subject. Think of that what you will."

http://tdsgbforum.forumup.com/post-11875-tdsgbforum.html#11875

Blufawn:

"It has been voted on by the TDR committee and most agree that DNA testing is too easily cheated by both parties.
With the TBA having access to the 'real' parents as well as the false Czech wolfdogs, the dna profiles could easily be faked to come out positive, just as we could easily swap the dna for it to come out negative for a paternity match. Should the results not come out the way either side wants then shouts of 'foul play' will be heard, DNA profiling will most likely not put a stop to it. "

http://tdsgbforum.forumup.com/post-11977-tdsgbforum.html#11977

So even when I suggested that we are not involved in the actual sampling, they refuse. Also, I fail to see how any access to "false" csws would alter the DNA analysis as they only analyse parent - offspring relationship, it either is positive or it isn't. It is in our interest to use the correct dogs for this reason and I think this is obvious to everyone. I would have thought the same for them so I am honestly quite surprised Blufawn even brought up the possibility of them swapping samples. I am willing to trust their sampling to a vet or to an outsider. I am even willing to pay for this. As Blustag said, Think of that what you will.

Thank you!

Very interesting reading i have to say. If it were my dogs i was breeding an i was so outraged by these 'lies' then i would jump at the chance to prove the other party wrong. This would appeal to my baser instincts of wanting to say 'i told you so' as well as clearing my name. The email you sent was polite and in no way demanding (a sure fire way of making people dig there heels in just to be studdon) so i dont see the problem.

I would also LOVE to know how DNA testing can be fiddled and is open to fraud Clearly all those people locked up on the results of DNA testing were victims of this!

I have no problem with this post being here, but would like to ask that cross posting from the other forum be disallowed maybe a simple link to the other forum and the posts pertaining would be better.

I will add that as the previous thread it will be locked if it is deemed to cause trouble for other users.

please ensure that this stays legal and no liable suits can be brought against our forum

Other than that a good idea.

Can I make a suggestion? if you make it that it needs done by a vet and also with microchip number recorded then surely no-one would be able to cheat..

I assume this is to prove parentage ?

razcox wrote:Very interesting reading i have to say. If it were my dogs i was breeding an i was so outraged by these 'lies' then i would jump at the chance to prove the other party wrong. This would appeal to my baser instincts of wanting to say 'i told you so' as well as clearing my name. The email you sent was polite and in no way demanding (a sure fire way of making people dig there heels in just to be studdon) so i dont see the problem.

I would also LOVE to know how DNA testing can be fiddled and is open to fraud Clearly all those people locked up on the results of DNA testing were victims of this!

it could be very easily fiddled, same as dodgy pedigrees with KC reg dogs, I'm sure all sorts of fiddles go on

especially if it is a just a hair sample, it could come from anything, it is all down to trust of the persons taking the samples

I would like to see all breeding dogs DNA profiled and the DNA logged along with the microchip, can't see it happening though

When we had Ela DNA profiled through the KC it was with a swap of cheek cells (will be doing this with Raina as well) that was sealed and then sent back. If it was done through the lab or the vets signing off then it would be very hard to foil DNA testing, people could get the answers they deserve if the breeders were willing to put the effort in. What i dont understand is they are so outraged by the allagations (sp?) and are saying its putting dogs lives at risk but seem to be unwilling to do anything to reolve or refute this . . .

Thanks to admin!

Lanie wrote:Can I make a suggestion? if you make it that it needs done by a vet and also with microchip number recorded then surely no-one would be able to cheat..

I assume this is to prove parentage ?

Yes, Lanie we have discussed this in the Tamaskan debate topic if youo want to check what this is all about.

Of course a vet would be better especially with microchipped dogs but I was willing to give them a chance to do this without any cost on their side. Hence suggesting the dogs could be sampled by a neutral person who recognises them and then this person can post these samples directly to the lab I would send the samples from the Finnish dogs. But as someone put it, I am very surprised they are the ones bringing up cheating as it would seem obvious they would want to prove the dogs are what they say they are. We have really no reason to cheat as we have access to the parental dogs. And also, like I have said, I want the truth. If the truth indeed is what they claim it to be, I'm fine with that.

Do you know the microchip numbers for the dogs that you are going to sample?
What if they are not microchipped?
They could easily say this dog is called (eg) Charles, please microchip him and dna swab him for me.
The vet could then send off Charles DNA, but it might not belong to a dog called Charles at all. I can see how this could easily be fiddled from both sides.
They could send off samples of any dog, how can you confirm it if you don't know the microchip numbers or if either of them has a vet that will write down whatever they ask?

Well Jingles...if we ever get anything sent from the Utes we can take them to a vet, with there papers that have the microchip numbers on and the vet is generally capable of scanning the dog to check the microchip number against the details held on the computer system that holds all the dogs details (Petlog or such like),All our pups are litter DNA screened and microchipped so that if the need ever arises it would be very easy to check parentage to ensure that no false pedigrees can be used??

Surely this should be a straight forward way to go to ensure that the register of your dogs is correct and to dismiss what you say is incorrect? If a dog hasnt been microchipped then get it done at the vets? In this day and age I would have thought a new breed would have already been doing so considering the amount of falsifying that was alleged in the beginning? Maybe thats just me??

How do you manage to get them health screened if they are not chipped??? i didnt think you could have as they are unrecognised...thats what we have to do?

I wasn't talking about the Tamaskan being microchipped, Polar Speed kennels does not microchip his dogs, I know because Lynns dogs came without microchips even though she asked for them to be on pets passports and she had to wait for them to be done (and rabies injected) before she could return to the UK.

jingle wrote:I wasn't talking about the Tamaskan being microchipped, Polar Speed kennels does not microchip his dogs, I know because Lynns dogs came without microchips even though she asked for them to be on pets passports and she had to wait for them to be done (and rabies injected) before she could return to the UK.

This is absolutely true, I believe Reijo only has dogs microchipped if they need it for racing or export. Siberians have no compulsory health tests in Finland (which I think they should have but that is another topic) so there isnt any reason for him to microchip everyone. After all, he has MANY dogs!

But, again I really cant see the problem as I have asked the lab the samples are still going to be analysed even without chips and they can be taken unofficially. We have no reason to cheat sampling the dogs we regard as the parents of Blustag's dogs, if you think about it why would we mess up our OWN evidence? Also, cheating and lying isnt really my cup of tea anyway. I have already organised the whole analysing, prepared to pay for it, travel for it and send out kits to Lynn with no charge at all. If she wants to prove she has what she says she has, she shouldnt have any problems giving the samples. As the samples can be sent straight to the lab, I cant see why there would be any chance for us to tamper them. If it will be easier to send samples to a UK lab, that suites me fine. I will only have to ask if swabs are ok to post if they wont take hair samples.

I have said again and again I am open to any suggestions from TDR but I havent even received a single reply. This really bothers me as I would have thought the TDR would want to close this issue and prove us wrong.

I must admit it seem like they are happy to play the injured party in all this and start shouting about lawers ect but given a possible solution to clear there name they go suddenly quiet! If dogs lives were really at risk as they seem to be throwing at the makers of this website then surely this is more important then behaving like a child a refusing to help. Unless of course they already know what the results will be and know that it wont go in there favour of course . . .

If for any reason it was taken to court it wouldnt go very far before DNA testing was requested to provide proof anyway i would have thought

I understand if the TDR do not trust the maker of this website if what they have written on the website is untrue (if it was all untrue what they have written then how can you trust them with DNA samples, they have done all that lying already, why would they stop now).

The Aatu Tamaskan breeders are the ones responsible for the website. They have started a new breed and even before they have had their first litter they are putting up a website dedicated to slamming what is now the 'rival' original breed.

Not disimilar to what happened when the Utonagan people broke away from the NI and then slammed the NI for having health issues, why do they do these things?
The answer is simple, to encourage people away from the original breed and towards the new one (despite them being from the same lines).
Its exactly the same sort of thing repeating itself.

If this is purely being done for monetary purposes I would also be untrusting, this is not being done for the good of the breed I am convinced of that.

jingle wrote:
Not disimilar to what happened when the Utonagan people broke away from the NI and then slammed the NI for having health issues, why do they do these things?
The answer is simple, to encourage people away from the original breed and towards the new one (despite them being from the same lines).
Its exactly the same sort of thing repeating itself.
.

Im not aware of the Utes slating the NI infact BUA and NIS work alongside each other , maybe TDR and the AATU will do the same eh??

Stop bringing us into your arguement

jingle wrote:I understand if the TDR do not trust the maker of this website if what they have written on the website is untrue (if it was all untrue what they have written then how can you trust them with DNA samples, they have done all that lying already, why would they stop now).

I seem to be repeating myself here. None of us need to be involved in the sampling, so I fail to see the problem. The lab is the same that does the FKC official parental analysis and profiling so they are very professional. And, like I have suggested, I can send our samples to UK if that helps.

jingle wrote:
The Aatu Tamaskan breeders are the ones responsible for the website. They have started a new breed and even before they have had their first litter they are putting up a website dedicated to slamming what is now the 'rival' original breed.

I have nothing to do with Aatu tamaskan, I dont breed tamaskans and never will. Hennis has nothing to do with tamaskans, she has wolfdogs. If you have read the site, you can see it mentions Aatu breeders' own dogs and dogs in their dogs' pedigree. It also states quite clearly we are promoting truth and research, not any particular breeder or line. The site is there to advise people to think before they buy and that, my friend, is true for any breed.

I still havent received any reply so I am forced to make the conclusion the TDR has something to hide regarding the true ancestry of the dogs we requested the samples from. Jingles, you are the one who made the suggestion of sampling the dogs so it is only fair to assume you will give us a reason why you backed away from the it.

If you have nothing to do with the Aatu Tamaskan then why have you gotten so involved with writing the website (owned by aatu tamaskan breeders) looking up Ute and NI forums to post links to it (I know you have been to more than one forum) and vandalising facebook with links to the website?

It seems to me that you must have some sort of reason for doing all this other than just being worried about the owners of Tamaskan.
A non-involved personal may hand over information they have to the people creating the website, but there must be another reason behind this for you or why would you be so involved with promoting the website and wanting to pay for DNA samples if you don't own a Tamaskan anyway and plan not to breed Aatu?

jingle wrote:If you have nothing to do with the Aatu Tamaskan then why have you gotten so involved with writing the website (owned by aatu tamaskan breeders) looking up Ute and NI forums to post links to it (I know you have been to more than one forum) and vandalising facebook with links to the website?

It seems to me that you must have some sort of reason for doing all this other than just being worried about the owners of Tamaskan.
A non-involved personal may hand over information they have to the people creating the website, but there must be another reason behind this for you or why would you be so involved with promoting the website and wanting to pay for DNA samples if you don't own a Tamaskan anyway and plan not to breed Aatu?

She does own a Tamaskan, and is it so hard to believe that someone just wants others to know the truth?

jingle wrote:If you have nothing to do with the Aatu Tamaskan then why have you gotten so involved with writing the website (owned by aatu tamaskan breeders) looking up Ute and NI forums to post links to it (I know you have been to more than one forum) and vandalising facebook with links to the website?

It seems to me that you must have some sort of reason for doing all this other than just being worried about the owners of Tamaskan.
A non-involved personal may hand over information they have to the people creating the website, but there must be another reason behind this for you or why would you be so involved with promoting the website and wanting to pay for DNA samples if you don't own a Tamaskan anyway and plan not to breed Aatu?

I own Denver's sister and Heidi at Blustag's grandmother. I was there when the dogs where purchased from Polar Speed and I know what was promised to Reijo when this happened. I collected a lot of information for it to be readily available for everyone. None of the things Reijo was promised in turn for selling the dogs ever happened. The people who have contacted me to find out more about tamaskans have received everything I know and they have ALL confirmed they have never seen original Polar Speed names or saw pictures behind the mysterious nicknames in TDR pedigrees and Foundation Dog Booklet. My reason is this: I want people to know the truth and I want them to know it without cencorship.

Jingle, I am waiting for your reply to my previous question. And the many questions I asked you in the now closed topic. You seem to be very informed and clearly know Blufawn and Blustag very well so I assume you can speak for them if they cannot do it themselves.

BTW, I noticed that on the TDR forum Blufawn says: "none of the Finnish dogs had registered names to begin with", which makes it obvious Oskari is not P.S. Oskari. If he was pure bred, all their Finnish dogs would have FKC pedigrees, official names and ID numbers as if the sire was P.S.Oskari, all their imports would be pure siberian. And now we have Blufawn admitting they dont have registered names, i.e. they are not registered, i.e. they are not pure bred. I.e. Their sire has to be someone else than P.S. Oskari.

TuuliS wrote:

jingle wrote:If you have nothing to do with the Aatu Tamaskan then why have you gotten so involved with writing the website (owned by aatu tamaskan breeders) looking up Ute and NI forums to post links to it (I know you have been to more than one forum) and vandalising facebook with links to the website?

It seems to me that you must have some sort of reason for doing all this other than just being worried about the owners of Tamaskan.
A non-involved personal may hand over information they have to the people creating the website, but there must be another reason behind this for you or why would you be so involved with promoting the website and wanting to pay for DNA samples if you don't own a Tamaskan anyway and plan not to breed Aatu?

I own Denver's sister and Heidi at Blustag's grandmother.

Tuuli, you wrote " I want people to know the truth and I want them to know it without cencorship." Then how about you correct Danielle when she speaks of you owning a Tamaskan? If you want people to believe you then you must speak truthfully ALL of the time and not just when it suits you. Facts being what they are, Yes you own a Blustag dog but it is NOT A REGISTERED TAMASKAN is it? This is the second time I have seen you allow people to believe you are a Tamaskan owner without correction. The first time was on another site not too long ago.
Please correct Daneille's post by telling us what dog you own from Blustag and its given breed. Please tell us when you obtained this dog and if it was from Blustag kennels or obtained from someone else.

Right folks can we try to stay on topic here, this post was allowed as it is deemed to help and suggested DNA sampling for ALL owners of this breed. Hence the post was left on, can you all please refrain from this digressing into another thread bickering between yourselfs.

You all have made your points in the other thread that was locked that you all disagree on a multitude of facts, this forum is a common ground for all owners of all the wolf dog/wolfalike breeds, please treat it with courtesy.

Admin

[quote="john"]

TuuliS wrote:Tuuli, you wrote " I want people to know the truth and I want them to know it without cencorship." Then how about you correct Danielle when she speaks of you owning a Tamaskan?

john, this is the sort of stuff you insist in discussing? But of course, no, my two dogs do not have TDR papers and I never have suggested otherwise. I regard same bloodline being the same, regardless of a piece of paper. With an unofficial breed like Tamaskan even that piece of paper means nothing. I can of course ask Kim to register mine as Aatu Tamaskan, after which I have tamaskans.

john wrote:Yes you own a Blustag dog but it is NOT A REGISTERED TAMASKAN is it?

No, they are registered as Utonagan as I really dont care what they are as I'm not going to breed them as neither is of breeding quality.

john wrote:Please correct Daneille's post by telling us what dog you own from Blustag and its given breed. Please tell us when you obtained this dog and if it was from Blustag kennels or obtained from someone else.

Ok, as it now seems you really need to know, I will tell you everything. Admin is free to lock if sees necessary, I appologise in advance for any pms etc you may get in result.

I have two dogs from Blustag. Blustag Silver Wolf out of Sylka at Blustag and Kyte at Blustag, Elsa (or Echo when Lynn still had her) whom was originally sold to a wolfdog breeder in Finland who wanted new wolf blood for her breeding. I told Lynn not to sell this person as I had heard rumours she was a puppy producer. But Lynn sold Elsa and this lady bred her once to her mid content male, this litter produced Sara who is Heidi at Blustag's mother. Elsa had serious behavioural problems at her owners and she asked me if I could take Elsa or else she would have to put her to sleep. I contacted Lynn if she wanted to take Elsa back which she didnt but begged me or my mum to take her. So I drove to Helsinki and bought her for the price of her hip x-rays plus 50 euros in cash and got her and have been ever since nursing her back to semi-normal mental health. She still has some issues and cannot be left alone inside at all. She had been kept in a small cage as she always opened the doors at her owners appartment hence letting her wolfdog male into the same room she had cats in and ate them. Her canines are worn on the inside of the tooth as a result of this. She is a lovely, lovely little angel and I love her to bitsbut I would never ever breed from her knowing her mental health and her background with epilepsy (Kyte at Blustag has produced several confirmed epileptics).

Luna is Blustag Pawnee Lynx out of Sylka at Blustag and Anzarra, litter sister to e.g. Denver, Blustag Menomee Owl and Blustag Inuit Crow. After I had helped Lynn into contact with Reijo and driven several times to photograph his dogs and write down the ancestry etc, taken Lynn & her ex to Lapland and paid all the expense, she offered me a puppy in return. I said yes and was given the pick of the litter which I got to choose myself. Luna had severe stomach problems the day she came and it turned out she had severe giardia infection which only cured with a very strong dewormer. She has aggression issues with other dogs and is very unpredictable with even my siberians. This is why she now lives with my mum & dad (about 10km from us so I see her almost every day) where she clearly is happier. Again she is a sweet dog but not breeding quality. She was recently x-rayd and showed a form of bone abnormality in her last vertebrae.

I have never been refused a puppy as Blustag seems adamant to say. If I have, ok, fine, but she should have the proof to back it up?

The reason why Lynn and I went our separate ways was because of Luna's health problems. I asked time and time again Lynn to give me details of Luna's backgound and if there were stomach problems. I also got in contact with several people who had had similar problems. ONe lady had three puppies which we thought were either Luna's sisters or from Samba (GSD x Utonagan) x Kyte which were also sold as pure Utonagan. They all had problems in their intestinal track, which confirmed severe abnormalities after biopsy. These three later died of epilepsy, as I just last week found out. I have the correspondence to confirm this. The same time I got emails from a friend of mine who had been emailing with Lynn and she forwarded me emails where Lynn said some very unpleasent things about me. At that time I still thought her of my friend. I also heard from one of my husky's breeder that Lynn had been warning the sibe club about me. After that I asked her a clear list of questions about health, pedigrees, if she had been talking about me behind my back etc. I never received any reply and thus never spoke to her since. Lynn however sent me a letter where she said Reijo had conned her and that no-one respected Reijo anymore. I never replied as I really had nothing to say to her. After she and her daughter started the whole Tamaskan thing, and it became obvious they were not going to tell all details I began to post to forums to tell what I knew. I had the occasional email from people who wanted to know more and Ihave toldthem what I know. I still dont really feel nothing more but pity for Lynn and Jennie. But I still feel I need to tell what I know to be true.

Does this answer your question of what I have and why I care?

Utonagans one day, Tamaskans the next...I would think dogs of the same line would be part of the same breed

Even the BUA keep their two northern inuit dogs as northern inuit dogs, and they will never be anything other than NI, its not going to be until after a couple of generations of breeding before they will be called Utonagans.

Maybe the Tamaskan people should have thought that out before they changed what breed their dogs were. But then, it seems to me that money was the first motivator. Break "free" of the health stereotypes from the other group so they can sell more puppies. From what I've read, it seems that some of the health issues did not break free of the breed though Such a shame.

As you all have seen quotes by Blufawn and Blustag as to the TDR Committee not wanting to submit to this foolishness. The Aatu Breeders, Tuuli, and all there contacts should have enough dogs to submitt to these DNA Tests. Problem is, There is no such DNA test availible at this time to make a determination of wolf content. I have checked through Finnzymes who then refered me to MMI Genomics who also wrote to me explaining they do not have DNA testing to determine Wolf content. Unless you go to some experimental lab specializing in wolf DNA and pay hundreds if not thousands of dollars will this happen.
If anyone cares to see the emails from Finnzymes or MMI, Send me a PM and we can chat. If anyone has facts otherwize please forward me the contact information to where DNA Testing to determine wolf content is done.
Another topic put to rest.

John

john wrote:Problem is, There is no such DNA test availible at this time to make a determination of wolf content. I have checked through Finnzymes who then refered me to MMI Genomics who also wrote to me explaining they do not have DNA testing to determine Wolf content. Unless you go to some experimental lab specializing in wolf DNA and pay hundreds if not thousands of dollars will this happen.

We are not trying to determine wolf content. Only paternity, which is routinely done in the dog world all the time. I am aware of what DNA testing can be used for and what not. I'm trying to say this as clearly a I possibly can: we want to sample the dogs to prove that Valko is the sire of Heidi and Skye & the others from Whitefang x Paloosa litter, Boogie is the sire of Jodie and Valko (i.e. Valko is Whitefang) and CSW Oxbow Leva-Neve is the sire of Jackal and Dingo.

john wrote:As you all have seen quotes by Blufawn and Blustag as to the TDR Committee not wanting to submit to this foolishness. The Aatu Breeders, Tuuli, and all there contacts should have enough dogs to submitt to these DNA Tests. Problem is, There is no such DNA test availible at this time to make a determination of wolf content. I have checked through Finnzymes who then refered me to MMI Genomics who also wrote to me explaining they do not have DNA testing to determine Wolf content. Unless you go to some experimental lab specializing in wolf DNA and pay hundreds if not thousands of dollars will this happen.
If anyone cares to see the emails from Finnzymes or MMI, Send me a PM and we can chat. If anyone has facts otherwize please forward me the contact information to where DNA Testing to determine wolf content is done.
Another topic put to rest.

John

John no disrespect but I would have assumed the majority on here are perfectly aware that there is no such test for content, all that can be done is a parentage check which due to the fact all the background dogs are allegedly accounted for in the breed I would have thought it be the best and safest option for all concerned especially if infact these allegations are untrue....there are a lot of owners and dogs that could be affected by all of this and as a breeder myself I would be wanting to allay any rumours or otherwise that affected my puppy owners. Utonagan should be fairly easy to check as Utes have been Dna profiled as litters for a few years now, the main reason being to ensure records of parentage are held by the Kennel Club especially now as some people are mixing in wolf dog and there are also rumours of a hybrid being used by the "wolfdog" breeders (by that I men those who re mixing any old dogs nd lumping them all under the same umbrella).... ALL our puppy owners are safe in the knowledge that if ever we were accused of any underhanded action re parents of their dogs it can be easily proven where they came from and in fact have no wolfdog or wolf content in them. I would have assumed that the Tamaskan had done the same so there should only be a few founders left to profile.

Wether the 2 factions agree or not the main concern IMO should be your owners and as a Registration body I would think TDR responsible to set their members minds at ease and sort this out once and for all. There are many Ute Breeders that had involvement with the creation of the Tamaskan (before it was called so) and they have all told me the reasons they split in the BIUS where due to wolfdog input? I have never known either way and tihs does not affect me personally, but surely if these rumours have been going for that long something needs to be done to address the situation.